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Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names

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From: Linus Torvalds
Subject: Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names
Date: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 6:16 pm

On Wed, 16 Jan 2008, Kevin Ballard wrote:

The thing is, you seem to argue that what OS X does helps you as the user.

But you are arguing based on incorrect assumptions.

First off, we've had years and years and years of usage of non-corrupting 
filesystems (pretty much every UNIX OS around since day 1, and many other 
OS's too), and it's simply not true that it's a problem. You see the 
filename in the file dialog, and you open it, and you're done. OS X isn't 
any "easier" in this regard.

In fact, this whole thread comes from the fact that the OS X choice that 
you *think* is easier, is in fact not easier at all. It's not easier for 
the user, it's not easier for the application programmer, and the really 
sad part is that it's very much *not* easier for OS X itself either (ie 
they had to literally write extra code with nasty tables to do it, and it 
really does hurt them in performance and complexity).

And _that_ is why the OS X situation is so sad. Apple literally added 
extra code to make things slower and more complex *and* harder to use 
reliably.

Does it show up in normal behaviour? Of course not. You'd probably never 
see it in real life outside of test-suites. People simply don't even tend 
to use filenames outside of US-ASCII, and when they do use them, input 
methods really *do* tend to do the normalization for you.

But when it comes to automation (which is what computers are all about), 
the OS X choice is literally the wrong one. And there's no _upside_. It's 
all downside. Which is why it's so stupid.

I bet it only exists because OS X engineers didn't really even think about 
it, and they just assumed that "normalization is helpful". They took your 
stance - thinking it was worth it, without ever really thinking it 
through.

			Linus
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Messages in current thread:
git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Mark Junker, (Wed Jan 16, 8:17 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Johannes Schindelin, (Wed Jan 16, 8:34 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kevin Ballard, (Wed Jan 16, 8:43 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Johannes Schindelin, (Wed Jan 16, 9:32 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Jakub Narebski, (Wed Jan 16, 9:46 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kevin Ballard, (Wed Jan 16, 1:39 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Jakub Narebski, (Wed Jan 16, 2:51 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kevin Ballard, (Wed Jan 16, 3:06 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Johannes Schindelin, (Wed Jan 16, 3:23 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Wed Jan 16, 3:32 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Eyvind Bernhardsen, (Wed Jan 16, 3:37 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Wed Jan 16, 3:52 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Wincent Colaiuta, (Wed Jan 16, 4:03 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kevin Ballard, (Wed Jan 16, 4:11 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kevin Ballard, (Wed Jan 16, 4:16 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Wed Jan 16, 4:38 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Dmitry Potapov, (Wed Jan 16, 4:52 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Pedro Melo, (Wed Jan 16, 4:57 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, David Kastrup, (Wed Jan 16, 4:58 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kevin Ballard, (Wed Jan 16, 5:09 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Wed Jan 16, 5:16 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Wed Jan 16, 5:19 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Wed Jan 16, 5:25 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Pedro Melo, (Wed Jan 16, 5:27 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, David Kastrup, (Wed Jan 16, 5:32 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Johannes Schindelin, (Wed Jan 16, 5:33 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Johannes Schindelin, (Wed Jan 16, 5:35 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Pedro Melo, (Wed Jan 16, 5:40 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Pedro Melo, (Wed Jan 16, 5:43 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Pedro Melo, (Wed Jan 16, 5:45 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Wincent Colaiuta, (Wed Jan 16, 5:54 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Johannes Schindelin, (Wed Jan 16, 5:57 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Wed Jan 16, 6:06 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Johannes Schindelin, (Wed Jan 16, 6:08 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Wed Jan 16, 6:16 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Wed Jan 16, 6:41 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kevin Ballard, (Wed Jan 16, 8:52 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kevin Ballard, (Wed Jan 16, 9:07 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Wed Jan 16, 9:08 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kevin Ballard, (Wed Jan 16, 9:30 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Jay Soffian, (Wed Jan 16, 9:43 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Martin Langhoff, (Wed Jan 16, 9:51 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Jay Soffian, (Wed Jan 16, 9:59 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Wed Jan 16, 10:11 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Junio C Hamano, (Wed Jan 16, 10:15 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kevin Ballard, (Wed Jan 16, 10:23 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Geert Bosch, (Wed Jan 16, 11:13 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Mitch Tishmack, (Thu Jan 17, 12:11 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Miles Bader, (Thu Jan 17, 12:29 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Wincent Colaiuta, (Thu Jan 17, 3:08 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Wincent Colaiuta, (Thu Jan 17, 3:22 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Wincent Colaiuta, (Thu Jan 17, 3:28 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Johannes Schindelin, (Thu Jan 17, 4:10 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Pedro Melo, (Thu Jan 17, 4:23 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Wincent Colaiuta, (Thu Jan 17, 4:46 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Wincent Colaiuta, (Thu Jan 17, 4:51 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Johannes Schindelin, (Thu Jan 17, 5:53 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Johannes Schindelin, (Thu Jan 17, 6:05 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Wincent Colaiuta, (Thu Jan 17, 6:40 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kevin Ballard, (Thu Jan 17, 6:44 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Andrew Heybey, (Thu Jan 17, 7:02 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kevin Ballard, (Thu Jan 17, 8:04 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Johannes Schindelin, (Thu Jan 17, 8:57 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Thu Jan 17, 9:43 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kevin Ballard, (Thu Jan 17, 9:53 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Mark Junker, (Thu Jan 17, 11:09 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Pedro Melo, (Thu Jan 17, 11:12 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Johannes Schindelin, (Thu Jan 17, 11:18 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Mark Junker, (Thu Jan 17, 11:36 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Pedro Melo, (Thu Jan 17, 11:38 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Thu Jan 17, 11:42 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Thu Jan 17, 11:44 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Mark Junker, (Thu Jan 17, 11:50 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Pedro Melo, (Thu Jan 17, 11:52 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Theodore Tso, (Thu Jan 17, 12:01 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Pedro Melo, (Thu Jan 17, 12:02 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Thu Jan 17, 12:11 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Dmitry Potapov, (Thu Jan 17, 2:27 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, JM Ibanez, (Thu Jan 17, 3:01 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Johannes Schindelin, (Thu Jan 17, 3:09 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Thu Jan 17, 4:05 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Dmitry Potapov, (Thu Jan 17, 4:10 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kevin Ballard, (Thu Jan 17, 5:18 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Thu Jan 17, 5:35 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Robin Rosenberg, (Thu Jan 17, 5:44 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Robin Rosenberg, (Thu Jan 17, 6:05 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Thu Jan 17, 6:24 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Robin Rosenberg, (Thu Jan 17, 6:27 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Peter Karlsson, (Fri Jan 18, 1:29 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Dmitry Potapov, (Fri Jan 18, 1:49 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Robin Rosenberg, (Fri Jan 18, 2:42 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Peter Karlsson, (Fri Jan 18, 3:19 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Dmitry Potapov, (Fri Jan 18, 3:30 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Dmitry Potapov, (Fri Jan 18, 3:50 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Jakub Narebski, (Fri Jan 18, 4:16 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Peter Karlsson, (Fri Jan 18, 8:30 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Peter Karlsson, (Fri Jan 18, 8:37 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Fri Jan 18, 10:11 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kevin Ballard, (Fri Jan 18, 1:24 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Junio C Hamano, (Fri Jan 18, 1:28 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Johannes Schindelin, (Fri Jan 18, 1:50 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Dmitry Potapov, (Sat Jan 19, 1:48 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kevin Ballard, (Sat Jan 19, 7:55 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Sat Jan 19, 11:58 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kyle Moffett, (Sat Jan 19, 12:29 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kevin Ballard, (Sat Jan 19, 12:57 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Mark Junker, (Sat Jan 19, 1:39 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Dmitry Potapov, (Sat Jan 19, 2:17 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Johannes Schindelin, (Sat Jan 19, 3:58 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Wincent Colaiuta, (Sat Jan 19, 5:11 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Sat Jan 19, 6:04 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Mike Hommey, (Sat Jan 19, 10:27 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Sat Jan 19, 10:45 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Dmitry Potapov, (Sat Jan 19, 11:14 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Sat Jan 19, 11:53 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Mike Hommey, (Sun Jan 20, 12:00 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Sun Jan 20, 12:26 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Dmitry Potapov, (Sun Jan 20, 1:00 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Dmitry Potapov, (Sun Jan 20, 1:12 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Wincent Colaiuta, (Sun Jan 20, 2:34 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Johannes Schindelin, (Sun Jan 20, 6:15 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Peter Karlsson, (Mon Jan 21, 7:14 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kevin Ballard, (Mon Jan 21, 9:43 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Jeff King, (Mon Jan 21, 9:53 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Nicolas Pitre, (Mon Jan 21, 10:08 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kevin Ballard, (Mon Jan 21, 10:25 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Mon Jan 21, 11:12 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Mon Jan 21, 11:16 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kevin Ballard, (Mon Jan 21, 12:05 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Mon Jan 21, 12:41 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Mike Hommey, (Mon Jan 21, 12:44 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Theodore Tso, (Mon Jan 21, 12:57 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kevin Ballard, (Mon Jan 21, 12:58 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kevin Ballard, (Mon Jan 21, 1:01 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Theodore Tso, (Mon Jan 21, 1:15 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Dmitry Potapov, (Mon Jan 21, 1:30 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kevin Ballard, (Mon Jan 21, 1:31 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, David Kastrup, (Mon Jan 21, 1:32 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Mon Jan 21, 1:33 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, David Kastrup, (Mon Jan 21, 1:35 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Dmitry Potapov, (Mon Jan 21, 1:36 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Theodore Tso, (Mon Jan 21, 1:46 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kevin Ballard, (Mon Jan 21, 1:53 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Dmitry Potapov, (Mon Jan 21, 1:56 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, David Kastrup, (Mon Jan 21, 1:58 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kevin Ballard, (Mon Jan 21, 1:59 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Martin Langhoff, (Mon Jan 21, 2:06 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kevin Ballard, (Mon Jan 21, 2:07 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, David Kastrup, (Mon Jan 21, 2:09 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Martin Langhoff, (Mon Jan 21, 2:17 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kevin Ballard, (Mon Jan 21, 2:28 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Mon Jan 21, 2:33 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Mon Jan 21, 2:42 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Martin Langhoff, (Mon Jan 21, 2:43 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kevin Ballard, (Mon Jan 21, 2:49 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Mon Jan 21, 3:34 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Dmitry Potapov, (Mon Jan 21, 3:41 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Martin Langhoff, (Mon Jan 21, 3:45 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kevin Ballard, (Mon Jan 21, 3:46 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kevin Ballard, (Mon Jan 21, 3:53 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Martin Langhoff, (Mon Jan 21, 3:56 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Theodore Tso, (Mon Jan 21, 4:00 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kevin Ballard, (Mon Jan 21, 4:09 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Dmitry Potapov, (Mon Jan 21, 4:21 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Mon Jan 21, 4:44 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kevin Ballard, (Mon Jan 21, 5:47 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Mon Jan 21, 6:01 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Mon Jan 21, 6:13 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kevin Ballard, (Mon Jan 21, 7:33 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Mon Jan 21, 7:50 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kevin Ballard, (Mon Jan 21, 8:04 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Linus Torvalds, (Mon Jan 21, 8:17 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Martin Langhoff, (Mon Jan 21, 8:21 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Kevin Ballard, (Mon Jan 21, 9:22 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Eric W. Biederman, (Tue Jan 22, 7:46 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Junio C Hamano, (Tue Jan 22, 7:57 pm)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Nicolas Pitre, (Wed Jan 23, 7:26 am)
Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names, Junio C Hamano, (Wed Jan 23, 2:19 pm)