Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems

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From: Craig Ruff
Date: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 - 11:22 am

On Wed, Aug 15, 2007 at 10:30:19AM -0700, Marc Perkel wrote:

I would like to add support for Kyle's assertion.

The model described by Marc is exactly the method used by the current
version of the NCAR Mass Storage Service (MSS), which is data archive
of 4+ petabytes contained in 40+ million files.  To the user's point
of view, it looks somewhat like a POSIX file system with both some
extensions and deficiencies.  The MSS was designed in the mid-1980s,
in an era where the costs of the supercomputers (Cray-1s at that time)
were paramount.  This lead to some MSS design decisions to minimize the
need for users to rerun jobs on the expensive supercomputer just because
they messed up their MSS file creation statements.

Files names are a maximum of 128 bytes, with a dynamically managed
directory structure indicated by '/' characters in the name.  The file
name is hashed, and the hash table provides the internal file number (the
address in the Master File Directory (MFD)).  Any parent directories
are created automatically by the system upon file creation, and are
automatically deleted if empty upon file deletion.  Directories also
have a self pointer, and both files and directories are chained together
to allow the user to list (or otherwise manipulate) the contents of
a directory.

The biggest problem with this model is that to manipulate the a directory
itself, you have to simulate the operation on all of the files contained
within it.  For example to rename a directory with 'n' descendants,
you must perform:

	n+1 hash table removals
	n+1 hash table insertions (with collision detection)
	n+1 MFD record updates
	1   directory chain removal
	1   directory chain insertion

This is, needless to say, very painful when n is large.  Since users
must use directory trees to efficiently manage their data holdings,
efficient directory manipulation is essential.  Contrast this with
the number of operations required for a directory rename if files
do not record their complete pathname:

	1 directory chain removal
	1 directory chain insertion

Fortunately we are currently working to change from using a model like
Marc describes to one Kyle describes.
-
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Messages in current thread:
Thinking outside the box on file systems, Marc Perkel, (Tue Aug 14, 3:45 pm)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Michael Tharp, (Wed Aug 15, 6:02 am)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Lennart Sorensen, (Wed Aug 15, 6:30 am)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Kyle Moffett, (Wed Aug 15, 6:53 am)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Michael Tharp, (Wed Aug 15, 8:14 am)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Marc Perkel, (Wed Aug 15, 9:02 am)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Marc Perkel, (Wed Aug 15, 9:36 am)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Valdis.Kletnieks, (Wed Aug 15, 9:57 am)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Kyle Moffett, (Wed Aug 15, 9:58 am)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Marc Perkel, (Wed Aug 15, 10:02 am)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Marc Perkel, (Wed Aug 15, 10:09 am)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Kyle Moffett, (Wed Aug 15, 10:17 am)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Marc Perkel, (Wed Aug 15, 10:19 am)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Kyle Moffett, (Wed Aug 15, 10:22 am)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Marc Perkel, (Wed Aug 15, 10:30 am)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Michael Tharp, (Wed Aug 15, 10:30 am)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Marc Perkel, (Wed Aug 15, 10:34 am)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Phillip Susi, (Wed Aug 15, 10:34 am)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Kyle Moffett, (Wed Aug 15, 10:37 am)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Marc Perkel, (Wed Aug 15, 10:51 am)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Kyle Moffett, (Wed Aug 15, 10:53 am)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Marc Perkel, (Wed Aug 15, 10:54 am)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Marc Perkel, (Wed Aug 15, 10:59 am)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Marc Perkel, (Wed Aug 15, 11:05 am)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Kyle Moffett, (Wed Aug 15, 11:14 am)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Craig Ruff, (Wed Aug 15, 11:22 am)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Lennart Sorensen, (Wed Aug 15, 12:20 pm)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Lennart Sorensen, (Wed Aug 15, 12:26 pm)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Yakov Lerner, (Wed Aug 15, 1:02 pm)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Kyle Moffett, (Wed Aug 15, 1:11 pm)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Marc Perkel, (Wed Aug 15, 1:20 pm)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Marc Perkel, (Wed Aug 15, 1:35 pm)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Phillip Susi, (Wed Aug 15, 1:38 pm)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Phillip Susi, (Wed Aug 15, 1:43 pm)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Marc Perkel, (Wed Aug 15, 1:44 pm)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Marc Perkel, (Wed Aug 15, 1:50 pm)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Lennart Sorensen, (Wed Aug 15, 2:04 pm)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Kyle Moffett, (Wed Aug 15, 2:17 pm)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Valdis.Kletnieks, (Wed Aug 15, 2:20 pm)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Phillip Susi, (Wed Aug 15, 3:14 pm)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Marc Perkel, (Wed Aug 15, 3:40 pm)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Marc Perkel, (Wed Aug 15, 3:48 pm)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Valdis.Kletnieks, (Wed Aug 15, 8:42 pm)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Kyle Moffett, (Wed Aug 15, 9:44 pm)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Helge Hafting, (Thu Aug 16, 4:27 am)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Helge Hafting, (Thu Aug 16, 4:42 am)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, linux-os (Dick Johnson), (Thu Aug 16, 5:09 am)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Phillip Susi, (Thu Aug 16, 8:09 am)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Valdis.Kletnieks, (Thu Aug 16, 8:29 am)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Phillip Susi, (Thu Aug 16, 10:28 am)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Valdis.Kletnieks, (Thu Aug 16, 10:31 am)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Phillip Susi, (Thu Aug 16, 3:03 pm)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, H. Peter Anvin, (Thu Aug 16, 4:12 pm)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Kyle Moffett, (Thu Aug 16, 4:17 pm)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Marc Perkel, (Thu Aug 16, 9:24 pm)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Valdis.Kletnieks, (Thu Aug 16, 9:52 pm)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Phillip Susi, (Fri Aug 17, 8:19 am)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Valdis.Kletnieks, (Fri Aug 17, 8:39 am)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Phillip Susi, (Fri Aug 17, 12:01 pm)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Kyle Moffett, (Fri Aug 17, 10:48 pm)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Marc Perkel, (Sat Aug 18, 9:45 am)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Al Viro, (Sat Aug 18, 11:19 am)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, david, (Sat Aug 18, 7:03 pm)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Al Viro, (Sat Aug 18, 7:57 pm)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Marc Perkel, (Sat Aug 18, 9:07 pm)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Brennan Ashton, (Mon Aug 20, 12:47 am)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Marc Perkel, (Mon Aug 20, 4:18 am)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, linux-os (Dick Johnson), (Mon Aug 20, 6:32 am)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Phillip Susi, (Mon Aug 20, 7:24 am)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Phillip Susi, (Mon Aug 20, 7:29 am)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Lennart Sorensen, (Mon Aug 20, 8:13 am)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Lennart Sorensen, (Mon Aug 20, 8:25 am)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Helge Hafting, (Mon Aug 20, 8:26 am)
Re: [OT] Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Xavier Bestel, (Mon Aug 20, 9:20 am)
[OT] Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Randy Dunlap, (Mon Aug 20, 9:21 am)
Re: Thinking outside the box on file systems, Oleg Verych, (Sat Sep 1, 4:20 pm)