Re: Reason for GPS problems found!

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From: thomasg
Date: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 - 4:49 am

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To be correct: not the card, the reader :)
We checked it with some different Sandisk models and the card from OM (also
standard-SD and SDHC), so the card itself cannot be the fault.

On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 1:43 PM, Rune Gangst=F8 <runegang@gmail.com> wrote:

r

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<div dir=3D"ltr">To be correct: not the card, the reader :)<br>We checked i=
t with some different Sandisk models and the card from OM (also standard-SD=
 and SDHC), so the card itself cannot be the fault.<br><br>On Tue, Jul 15, =
2008 at 1:43 PM, Rune Gangst=F8 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:runegang@gmail.com">r=
unegang@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"borde=
r-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-le=
ft: 1ex;">Confirm.<br>
I&#39;ve got a fix in 41secs (TTFF 41)<br>
Thanks for the great sharing :D<br>
<br>
The bad thing is the SD card :S<br>
<br>
2008/7/15 Marcus Bauer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:marcus.bauer@gmail.com">marcus=
.bauer@gmail.com</a>&gt;:<br>
<div><div></div><div class=3D"Wj3C7c">&gt;<br>
&gt; Confirming this too. Under decent conditions first TTFF 130s, then aft=
er<br>
&gt; a power down/power up it was ~40secs. Never saw it that fast on the<br=
&gt; Neo1973. Excellent! Well, more or less :o)<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On Tue, 2008-07-15 at 12:42 +0200, thomasg wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; Hi ppl,<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; I write this to community, not to devel or owners because everyone=
<br>
&gt;&gt; should know:<br>
&gt;&gt; sbeh, one of the people in #neo1973-germany IRC-channel found the<=
br>
&gt;&gt; reason for the GPS problems.<br>
&gt;&gt; The problem only occurs if a SD card is set in. Doesn&#39;t matter=
 if it&#39;s<br>
&gt;&gt; mounted or in use, it just has to sit in the socket.<br>
&gt;&gt; The TTFF went from no fix at all to TTFF 120 seconds indoor(!!!), =
and<br>
&gt;&gt; about 40 seconds outdoor.<br>
&gt;&gt; Two other people could verify this with about the same results.<br=
&gt;&gt; We&#39;ll do more tests later, but for now we surely know what&#39=
;s causing<br>
&gt;&gt; the problem (and it seems to be a EMC problem).<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; First results show at the same devices, even outdoor, that there i=
s no<br>
&gt;&gt; fix in over 400 seconds with SD card, the signal seems to be at le=
ast<br>
&gt;&gt; 10 to 20 dB worse (so bad, that most satellites don&#39;t even app=
ear).<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Testresults from other people appreciated.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; thomasg<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt;&gt; Openmoko community mailing list<br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:community@lists.openmoko.org">community@lists.op=
enmoko.org</a><br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community" t=
arget=3D"_blank">http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community</a><b=
r>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; Openmoko community mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:community@lists.openmoko.org">community@lists.openmo=
ko.org</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community" targe=
t=3D"_blank">http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community</a><br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Openmoko community mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:community@lists.openmoko.org">community@lists.openmoko.or=
g</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community" target=3D"=
_blank">http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

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Messages in current thread:
Reason for GPS problems found!, thomasg, (Tue Jul 15, 3:42 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Konstantin, (Tue Jul 15, 4:05 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Yorick Moko, (Tue Jul 15, 4:05 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Christophe Badoit, (Tue Jul 15, 4:07 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, thomasg, (Tue Jul 15, 4:09 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Tim Schmidt, (Tue Jul 15, 4:12 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Jay Vaughan, (Tue Jul 15, 4:16 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Jeffrey Malone, (Tue Jul 15, 4:16 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Ken Restivo, (Tue Jul 15, 4:16 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Roland Mas, (Tue Jul 15, 4:31 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Marcus Bauer, (Tue Jul 15, 4:35 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Rune Gangstø, (Tue Jul 15, 4:43 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, thomasg, (Tue Jul 15, 4:49 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Marcus Bauer, (Tue Jul 15, 4:52 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Jay Vaughan, (Tue Jul 15, 4:53 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, thomasg, (Tue Jul 15, 4:58 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Mikko Rauhala, (Tue Jul 15, 5:14 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Tilman Baumann, (Tue Jul 15, 5:19 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Jeffrey Ratcliffe, (Tue Jul 15, 5:22 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Brian C, (Tue Jul 15, 5:42 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Al Johnson, (Tue Jul 15, 5:53 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Bumbl, (Tue Jul 15, 5:56 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Gerald A, (Tue Jul 15, 6:00 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Søren Kristiansen, (Tue Jul 15, 6:27 am)
RE: Reason for GPS problems found!, Crane, Matthew, (Tue Jul 15, 6:32 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Ole Kliemann, (Tue Jul 15, 6:58 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Joerg Reisenweber, (Tue Jul 15, 7:05 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Joerg Reisenweber, (Tue Jul 15, 7:09 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, David Samblas Martinez, (Tue Jul 15, 7:14 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Yaroslav Halchenko, (Tue Jul 15, 7:15 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Jay Vaughan, (Tue Jul 15, 7:17 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Jay Vaughan, (Tue Jul 15, 7:22 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Yaroslav Halchenko, (Tue Jul 15, 7:22 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Jay Vaughan, (Tue Jul 15, 7:25 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found! Does it impact sound?, Yaroslav Halchenko, (Tue Jul 15, 7:25 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Alejandro Enrique, (Tue Jul 15, 7:30 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Yorick Moko, (Tue Jul 15, 7:37 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Torfinn Ingolfsen, (Tue Jul 15, 8:27 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Yogiz, (Tue Jul 15, 8:30 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, ian douglas, (Tue Jul 15, 8:37 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Yaroslav Halchenko, (Tue Jul 15, 8:39 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Chris, (Tue Jul 15, 8:41 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Yaroslav Halchenko, (Tue Jul 15, 8:56 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Christoph Anton Mitterer, (Tue Jul 15, 9:10 am)
Will SD/GPS issue affect delivery of next build?, Crane, Matthew, (Tue Jul 15, 9:50 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Yogiz, (Tue Jul 15, 10:11 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Neng-Yu Tu (Tony Tu), (Tue Jul 15, 10:12 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Gary Oliver, (Tue Jul 15, 10:19 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Gary Oliver, (Tue Jul 15, 10:41 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Torfinn Ingolfsen, (Tue Jul 15, 11:34 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Dirk Bergstrom, (Tue Jul 15, 11:53 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Kalle Happonen, (Tue Jul 15, 12:13 pm)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Jay Vaughan, (Tue Jul 15, 12:21 pm)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Kelvie Wong, (Tue Jul 15, 12:43 pm)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Yaroslav Halchenko, (Tue Jul 15, 1:04 pm)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Al Johnson, (Tue Jul 15, 1:10 pm)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Kyle Gordon, (Tue Jul 15, 1:31 pm)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Yaroslav Halchenko, (Tue Jul 15, 1:37 pm)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, ian douglas, (Tue Jul 15, 1:41 pm)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found! Does it impact sound?, Joerg Reisenweber, (Tue Jul 15, 1:43 pm)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Atilla Filiz, (Tue Jul 15, 1:44 pm)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Joerg Reisenweber, (Tue Jul 15, 1:49 pm)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Joerg Reisenweber, (Tue Jul 15, 1:50 pm)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Joerg Reisenweber, (Tue Jul 15, 1:55 pm)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, BlueStar88, (Tue Jul 15, 2:12 pm)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Jay Vaughan, (Tue Jul 15, 2:19 pm)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Joerg Reisenweber, (Tue Jul 15, 2:29 pm)
RE: Reason for GPS problems found!, Robert Horton, (Tue Jul 15, 2:50 pm)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Torfinn Ingolfsen, (Tue Jul 15, 2:51 pm)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Michele Renda, (Tue Jul 15, 2:59 pm)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Mikko Rauhala, (Tue Jul 15, 3:07 pm)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Christoph Anton Mitterer, (Tue Jul 15, 3:08 pm)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Hugo Mills, (Tue Jul 15, 3:33 pm)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Steven Kurylo, (Tue Jul 15, 3:39 pm)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, ian douglas, (Tue Jul 15, 3:40 pm)
RE: Reason for GPS problems found!, Robert Horton, (Tue Jul 15, 3:47 pm)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, "Marco Trevisan (Tre ..., (Tue Jul 15, 5:10 pm)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Simon Matthews, (Tue Jul 15, 5:39 pm)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Joerg Reisenweber, (Tue Jul 15, 5:47 pm)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Wolfgang Spraul, (Tue Jul 15, 6:22 pm)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Matt Joyce, (Tue Jul 15, 7:23 pm)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Joachim Steiger, (Tue Jul 15, 8:24 pm)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, "Marco Trevisan (Tre ..., (Tue Jul 15, 8:46 pm)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Jay Vaughan, (Tue Jul 15, 11:28 pm)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Michele Renda, (Tue Jul 15, 11:33 pm)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Marcus Bauer, (Tue Jul 15, 11:34 pm)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Kalle Happonen, (Tue Jul 15, 11:45 pm)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Jay Vaughan, (Tue Jul 15, 11:48 pm)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Jay Vaughan, (Tue Jul 15, 11:50 pm)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Wolfgang Spraul, (Wed Jul 16, 12:01 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Brian C, (Wed Jul 16, 12:10 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Marcus Bauer, (Wed Jul 16, 12:17 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Kalle Happonen, (Wed Jul 16, 12:18 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, David Samblas Martinez, (Wed Jul 16, 12:22 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Alexey Feldgendler, (Wed Jul 16, 12:33 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Andrew Bennett, (Wed Jul 16, 12:37 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Kalle Happonen, (Wed Jul 16, 12:42 am)
Re: Will SD/GPS issue affect delivery of next build?, Torsten Sievers, (Wed Jul 16, 1:02 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Neng-Yu Tu (Tony Tu), (Wed Jul 16, 1:14 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, john, (Wed Jul 16, 1:20 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Alexey Feldgendler, (Wed Jul 16, 1:21 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Neng-Yu Tu (Tony Tu), (Wed Jul 16, 1:26 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Marek Lindner, (Wed Jul 16, 1:27 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Jay Vaughan, (Wed Jul 16, 1:49 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, arne anka, (Wed Jul 16, 2:23 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Jeffrey Ratcliffe, (Wed Jul 16, 2:23 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Al Johnson, (Wed Jul 16, 2:55 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Christophe Badoit, (Wed Jul 16, 3:01 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, arne anka, (Wed Jul 16, 3:04 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Alejandro Enrique, (Wed Jul 16, 3:41 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Flemming Richter Mik ..., (Wed Jul 16, 5:32 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Sander van Grieken, (Wed Jul 16, 5:32 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Joerg Reisenweber, (Wed Jul 16, 5:43 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Joerg Reisenweber, (Wed Jul 16, 5:55 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, nick loeve, (Wed Jul 16, 7:11 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Andy Green, (Wed Jul 16, 8:02 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Kyle Gordon, (Wed Jul 16, 8:03 am)
RE: Reason for GPS problems found! And fixed., Crane, Matthew, (Wed Jul 16, 8:25 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, nick loeve, (Wed Jul 16, 8:26 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found! And fixed., Travis Tabbal, (Wed Jul 16, 8:41 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, BlueStar88, (Wed Jul 16, 10:12 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Dave Clark, (Wed Jul 16, 10:22 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Yorick Moko, (Wed Jul 16, 10:42 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Eildert Groeneveld, (Wed Jul 16, 12:54 pm)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Ole Kliemann, (Wed Jul 16, 2:03 pm)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Christoph Anton Mitterer, (Wed Jul 16, 4:30 pm)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Christoph Anton Mitterer, (Wed Jul 16, 4:43 pm)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Christoph Anton Mitterer, (Wed Jul 16, 5:06 pm)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Torfinn Ingolfsen, (Wed Jul 16, 5:50 pm)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Tracy R Reed, (Wed Jul 16, 5:58 pm)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Yair Mahalalel, (Wed Jul 16, 6:19 pm)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, JW, (Wed Jul 16, 6:51 pm)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Jay Vaughan, (Thu Jul 17, 1:00 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, nick loeve, (Thu Jul 17, 1:55 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, arne anka, (Thu Jul 17, 2:38 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Timo Jyrinki, (Thu Jul 17, 2:49 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Andy Green, (Thu Jul 17, 4:18 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, nick loeve, (Thu Jul 17, 5:01 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Russell Sears, (Thu Jul 17, 8:46 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Timo Jyrinki, (Thu Jul 17, 9:24 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Russell Sears, (Thu Jul 17, 12:23 pm)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Andy Green, (Thu Jul 17, 12:58 pm)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Yair Mahalalel, (Thu Jul 17, 3:51 pm)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Andy Green, (Fri Jul 18, 1:28 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Timo Jyrinki, (Fri Jul 18, 2:25 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Andy Green, (Fri Jul 18, 2:58 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Timo Jyrinki, (Fri Jul 18, 3:42 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Flemming Richter Mik ..., (Fri Jul 18, 3:56 am)
Re: freerunner unable to work with 3G SIM Cards?, Philipp Aeberli, (Fri Jul 18, 4:53 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Brian C, (Fri Jul 18, 6:33 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, JW, (Fri Jul 18, 6:49 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Joerg Reisenweber, (Fri Jul 18, 7:40 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Christophe Badoit, (Sat Jul 19, 4:36 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Ville-Pekka Vainio, (Sat Jul 19, 11:26 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Yaroslav Halchenko, (Sat Jul 19, 8:03 pm)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Torfinn Ingolfsen, (Sun Jul 20, 3:38 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Flemming Richter Mik ..., (Sun Jul 20, 4:32 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Yaroslav Halchenko, (Sun Jul 20, 9:20 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Andy Green, (Sun Jul 20, 10:50 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Ville-Pekka Vainio, (Sun Jul 20, 11:33 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found! / more patches, Andy Green, (Sun Jul 20, 5:11 pm)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found! / more patches, Alexey Feldgendler, (Mon Jul 21, 12:28 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found! / more patches, Andy Green, (Mon Jul 21, 12:35 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Roland Mas, (Mon Jul 21, 1:01 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Andy Green, (Mon Jul 21, 1:22 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found! / more patches, Scott Derrick, (Mon Jul 21, 10:38 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found! / more patches, Andy Green, (Mon Jul 21, 1:27 pm)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found! / more patches, Simon Matthews, (Mon Jul 21, 8:43 pm)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found! / more patches, Andy Green, (Tue Jul 22, 2:50 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found! / more patches, Mikko Rauhala, (Tue Jul 22, 3:38 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found! / more patches, Jay Vaughan, (Tue Jul 22, 4:41 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found! / more patches, Bastian Feder, (Tue Jul 22, 4:53 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found! / more patches, Andy Green, (Tue Jul 22, 5:01 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found! / more patches, Jay Vaughan, (Tue Jul 22, 5:12 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found! / more patches, Andy Green, (Tue Jul 22, 5:25 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found! / more patches, arne anka, (Tue Jul 22, 5:29 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found! / more patches, Andy Green, (Tue Jul 22, 5:41 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found! / more patches, nick loeve, (Tue Jul 22, 5:44 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found! / more patches, arne anka, (Tue Jul 22, 5:52 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found! / more patches, nick loeve, (Tue Jul 22, 6:19 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found! / more patches, Simon Matthews, (Tue Jul 22, 6:53 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found! / more patches, Cédric Berger, (Tue Jul 22, 7:07 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found! / more patches, Vinc Duran, (Tue Jul 22, 7:22 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found! / more patches, Andy Green, (Tue Jul 22, 7:25 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found! / more patches, Andy Green, (Tue Jul 22, 7:26 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found! / more patches, Andy Green, (Tue Jul 22, 7:27 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found! / more patches, Alexey Feldgendler, (Tue Jul 22, 8:01 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found! / more patches, Andy Green, (Tue Jul 22, 8:34 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found! / more patches, Mikko Rauhala, (Tue Jul 22, 8:39 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found! / more patches, Alexey Feldgendler, (Tue Jul 22, 8:42 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Timo Jyrinki, (Tue Jul 22, 10:55 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found!, Andy Green, (Tue Jul 22, 11:07 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found! / more patches, NeilBrown, (Tue Jul 22, 2:21 pm)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found! / more patches, Simon Matthews, (Wed Jul 23, 1:49 am)
Re: Reason for GPS problems found! / more patches, Andy Green, (Wed Jul 23, 1:57 am)